This is incredibly powerful.
A detransitioner confronts his therapist.
The conversation is on YouTube
Here is the transcript (not tidied up yet):
It kinda, it kinda, well, it really upset me last night.
And I almost started transitioning again.
Just, I don’t know what to say really.
Okay, so why, why, why did you have the thought to start transitioning?
I just, I didn’t want to age as a man. Basically I didn’t.
Simple dysphoria sort of stuff.
And sort of I guess why I started transitioning originally,
and, so yeah
what
what part of
this time that you haven’t been
transitioned
this past month
what has been
good about it
well i got my arm
operated on
oh
yeah i think it went pretty good i’m
still in a like sort of cast situation
for a week or two more um
but
i think it went well i don’t i don’t
know for sure how
it’s going to turn out in terms of my
use of the hand
but i guess we’ll see
hopefully hopefully it’ll fix the
problem if not
and you know no big issue i guess
but
if it did then that that’d be good i
might be able to do something
um
but
otherwise i would say
there wasn’t necessarily anything good
about it
i guess i didn’t have to take medication
that was
maybe that was good because it’s
probably killing me
yeah i took uh just some painkillers for
a little bit but i’m off those
when you said when i asked how you were
doing you said i’m upset
just now
what was the most upsetting
part
uh
that i was allowed to transition
and that i wasn’t given actual help
um and
that you and the other three gender
therapists i’ve seen are in my opinion
opinion
harmful charlatans effectively
because you made me infertile i mean you
put me on a path
not you specifically but the first
gender therapist i saw
it would have been any of you
at that time
just so happened to be that person
but
putting me on this path
couldn’t have possibly helped me
and
and
didn’t and didn’t help the actual issue
which was
the fact that you know
i don’t even know i don’t know if we
know what it is but
some some sort of mental illness
you know and and
and they don’t care they’re three gender
therapists they don’t even
they don’t care they don’t think about
me
they’re doing their own thing they’re
hurting other people now
you know they’ve moved on to other
people and and you will too
well i do care actually i mean i i
always care about what’s going on that’s
why i do this
yeah i don’t i don’t think
you’re necessarily
intentionally
evil but i do think you are evil
so
i mean look you’re dealing with people
who
have very complex issues
and
most of them are ignored
and
the only one that’s focused on
my experience
is
this gender thing
if i go to a gender therapist
and
i’m not even
i’m well i’m pretty convinced that there
is no such thing as any of this it
doesn’t it’s just all a mental illness
there is no such thing as a trans person
but i’m entirely convinced of that at
this point
none of them are real
and some of them are able to live in
that delusion for their life and they’re
able to enjoy that and some aren’t
and uh
you’re just
you the three other gender therapists
are just playing pretend
you know you don’t know what you’re
doing you have no clue what you’re doing
and i know you don’t because everyone
i’ve talked to doesn’t even know about
they haven’t even read the science you
haven’t read the science you have no
clue what you’re talking about so where
were you trained to help people on these
issues
so
my training comes from different
different places
i have
my background is
in in multiple
i don’t just do gender therapy
um so
i don’t think i’m playing pretend and i
do think i come to the table with
knowledge okay so what what what medical
studies have you read then on gender
gender transition trans people
um i’ve done i’ve read i’ve been to
different
i haven’t read actual medical okay so
you’ve read none
i’m not a doctor no i’m not a doctor
i’ve read over 300 medical studies
doesn’t mean anything i don’t think i’m
qualified to help these people i’ve read
over 300. you’ve read none
no i mean i’ve
and different read
but
i’ve gone to
classes i’ve done um trainings i’ve done
you know i’ve i’ve been to different
places i’ve done different things yeah
but you have no clue about the science
you have no clue what’s real so that’s
why i’m saying
that’s why i’m saying you’re playing
pretend because you have no idea what
you’re doing where you’re talking about
at all
and neither does my doctor
and
and it’s totally just [ _ ] and it’s harmful to a lot of people i’m not convinced it’s helpful to anyone some people are able to live in the delusion like i said but eventually most aren’t from what i’ve seen and it is just delusion and what if i told you i read 300 then i would be interested in talking to you about the actual science because you if you had read what i read then you might not feel like you’re actually helping people so you might feel like you’re hurting people like i feel like you are and like i feel like i’ve been hurt by you and by the other gender therapists who have allowed me to stay on this path for over two years well i can because i’ve talked to you for several months and in no point have you actually helped me on on any issues but especially the gender issue okay so and that’s i’m sorry that that’s how you feel but well it’s just the truth i mean you’ve done nothing for me except just allowed me to dance around in this delusion well maybe it should be maybe it should be in some cases for instance right for instance one of your clients says they’re going to kill themselves what are you going to do right right but instead if your client says i really want us you know i really want to start hormones and i want to you know do that and i want to harm myself through that i want to sterilize myself and you know cause myself horrible health conditions and medicalize myself for life well then you’re like okay well let me set you up with the doctor let me help you with that that’s that’s but it’s still self-harm they’re they’re hurting themselves and you’re you’re facilitating that one way one one instance you call the police to put them in a psych ward the second instance you send them to a doctor to help them sterilize themselves and ruin their lives and i’m speaking on behalf of thousands of people at the moment who’ve had this exact same thing happen to them who should have been stopped and should have been told what to do and should have been told that it’s real because some people who are mentally ill need to know what’s real not not just not just sit around and have a therapist allow them to like i say dance around in your delusion their delusion [Applause] and and just have them figure it out for themselves just like you said what you have been doing for me which is nothing which is just allowing me to be caught up in this horrible mindset which has robbed me of not only two years but likely my fertility has given me breasts has worsened my health conditions i mean and i i’m not i’m by far not the only one so you might you might say you’ve been trained but what you’ve been trained in is [ _ ]
because it hasn’t helped me i’ve seen
many of you
and it hasn’t held many people i know
yeah but at least i’d be fertile and at
least i wouldn’t have boobs and i
wouldn’t have worsening health
conditions
that’s the difference
that’s the difference
that’s the point that’s why you call the
police on the people who say that
they’re going to hurt themselves because
they might hate you afterward but at
least you saved them
but that’s not what’s happening here
what’s happening is you’re hurting
people
you and the other gender therapists are
hurting people and so did my doctor and
if i could sue you i would
if i could sue all of you i would
i can’t
and guess what after this we’re never
going to speak again and i’m never going
to see my doctors again
because they have no help for me
they have no help for me and there’s no
recourse for me
and this is how everyone gets treated
and you’re just going to keep doing it
to people and you’re going to think
you’re doing well you’re going to think
you’re helping people
yeah because that’s what because that’s
that’s what the zeitgeist is at the
moment that’s what people are
pushing is this medicalization of
everyone
who has this issue
i know you’re just incompetent i never
said there was intent
but incompetence at a certain point
becomes evil
especially when you’re dealing with the
type of people you’re dealing with
i guess i just wanted to see
what you’d say
to someone calling you out on this
horrible horrible
horrible situation that you have put you
and others have put people into because
of your lack of help
doctors therapists
are supposed to first do no harm right
well that’s not what you’re doing
i mean i know you i just i know you
can’t help me so
it’s it’s
you’ve not helped me one tiny bit this
whole time we’ve talked these past few
months
not a little bit
so i know that you’re not going to ever
help me figure out this transitioning
thing
what i do know is that it has hurt me
probably as bad as anyone really can get
hurt other than just dying
and you still think you’re right
you still think you’re doing well
and that’s why you’re evil
i believe that you don’t think i did
well for you i
believe you when you say that and i feel
very bad that you feel that way um i do
not believe i’m incompetent i don’t you
know i do have things that i i will
argue against but
um
but i also i’m going to say that you are
entitled to your opinion and you are
entitled to feel that way
um
again
my intent is not to i’m not gonna ever
i’ve told you this from the beginning
i’m not gonna
tell you yay or nay if you should
transition that’s
right i i i understand that that’s why
you’re incompetent
because you’re not going to be able to
help people who need help
you’re just going to let them dance
around in their delusion that’s that’s
what i’ve been saying you’re just gonna
let you’re just gonna let them figure
out their identities and oh you know i’m
not gonna push you one way or another
you poor mentally ill person who thinks
that they’re you know something that
they’re not
and i’m gonna let you sterilize yourself
and harm your body and i’m gonna i’m
gonna help you through that process
but i’m not gonna tell you what to do
because that would be wrong
that
it’s so hypocritical to call the cops on
someone who says they’re going to harm
themselves and then to send someone to
an endocrinologist who wants to
sterilize themselves it’s entirely
hypocritical
it’s a mental it’s a mental illness
it is
it’s a mental illness
it’s not what the endocrinologist’s
profession is either
they don’t they don’t tell me whether or
not i should transition they just give
me the medicine if i want to so it is
your job you’re the gatekeepers you’re
the ones who are supposed to help people
figure these things out that’s your
whole profession
in terms of gender therapy
that’s what you’re supposed to do
so you’re not doing that
so
actually you can’t say that i don’t do
that because i didn’t work with you in
the beginning
because it wouldn’t have helped
you what you think you’re so much
different than this other gender
therapist i saw that you really would
have
i don’t
i don’t think you’re different either
i think
it’s not right to you because you’ve
been trained a certain way i i
understand that but i i
would
say to you that the way you’ve been
trained is evil and hurtful to many
people and is going to hurt many many
many people like me
who are mentally ill
who do not need to be sterilized
and have their bodies ruined
and you’re just gonna let it you’re just
gonna let us decide for ourselves but
we’re mentally ill
so how are you doing that how are you
doing that in good conscience
letting us decide for ourselves
neither would someone who’s going to
kill themselves they wouldn’t appreciate
that you did that but at least they
would be fertile at least they wouldn’t
be
have a ruined body like i do now
so yeah i’d probably hate you
probably i’d probably hate you and i’d
probably never go to gender therapy
again and that may have saved me
that’s what you would do if someone were
going to hurt themselves that’s what you
would do if someone gonna
they were going to kill themselves
but but but if they hurt but as long as
they hurt themselves within
within this gender therapy
transition
field then you’ll help them
otherwise you’d stop them
i’m not even talking about having the
people with gender issues committed
that’s not even i’m just i’m just saying
tell them what’s real
tell them what’s real and and you know
what i know you don’t even know it’s
real
you don’t even know it’s real anymore
because you’ve been trained not to
so that’s why you can’t tell me what’s
real because you don’t know
because in this world where men are
women and women are men
and you’re not allowed to say which is
which
you can’t tell me what’s real
so you literally couldn’t have helped me
and yet you and yet you took my time
and you took my money
and you took our money
in this in this
fake
like charade
of help which could not have possibly
been helped
i mean it’s just so sick
so
i’d like you to have to
face the people
that you hurt
all of you gender therapists hurt in
court
i’d like to have your licenses revoked
maybe even put in prison
so that you could experience
some small amount of
what you put people like me through
and
i’d like to see actual therapists put in
your place
to help people like me
instead of hurt people like me
that’s what that’s what i would like
what you’re doing is not helpful
and if anyone’s ever told you it’s
helpful that they’re deluded
in terms of gender therapy they are
delusional
and i bet you i i don’t know
i can’t speak to your intentions but i
bet you know it i bet you know it i bet
you know it
because you’re not stupid
i’ve talked to you
so
i bet you know it somewhere deep down
that i’m not wrong
i mean as far as i’m concerned unless
something
i mean you know as far as i’m concerned
my life is
very very much ruined because of you and
people like you
ginger therapists
i mean that’s not an exaggeration i
i was at a bad place when i started
now i’m
just totally broken now
i
understand
and you
feel
i am sorry
that you feel that way
it’s like telling someone i’m sorry
you’re angry
is that an apology
because i don’t believe
so you think
you think all the people who are
transitioning
from
are attempting to change their
what’s gender sex this thing that
doesn’t even exist gender
you think that’s you think that’s good
and you think you’re helping
very them
for the ability to take hormones and to
to do a transition
i’ve met many people so far i’ve i’ve
met many people who aren’t
so what it so yeah so so what does it
matter how many people you’ve met i
think i guarantee you i’ve met more who
are
extremely pained and hurt and ruined by
this i bet more of those people than you
have met of people i guarantee you
unless you’ve met
over a hundred
well that’s the point i mean you’re just
saying oh i know people who have who
have benefited i know people whose lives
have been absolutely destroyed by it so
what does it matter
okay so but what do you say if your
client’s gonna say well i’m gonna start
cutting my arm up right now
is it different is it different how is
it different because actually it’s
actually not as bad if they cut their
arm off they cut their arm up they’re
probably not going to die
but if they take hormones they will be
sterilized
i was not informed about most of the
consequences that came to me to be fair
and i was i was in such a [ _ ] up place that despite the fact that i wanted fertility preservation i was too mentally ill to do that myself so i didn’t do that so because i had nothing to do with that it would have been the same it would have been the same and you know it you would have you would have referred you would have referred me to another doctor and i would have had this same issue with that doctor and they would have done the same exact things and by the way my my doctor i was apparently the first person out of the several i think she’s treated over 100 trans people over the hunt of the more than 100 trans people she’s treated i was i was the first one to bring up fertility that’s what she said to me that was that was the extent to which we ever talked about that of course i again i was too mentally ill to get that done at the time because i was convinced by you types of people you gender therapists that that this is what was right for me you know delusional people can be happy in fact often times it’s the delusional people who are the happiest so you saying that certain people appreciate and have enjoyed transitioning doesn’t mean anything that doesn’t mean anything it doesn’t mean that they’re not delusional and then they’re not going to suffer later i mean if you talk to me the first eight months of my transition you’d have thought i was doing great with it it means nothing you’re still diluting people maybe they live the whole their whole lives in that delusion but i i bet most of them break out at some point and realize that they’ve thrown their whole life away because of you and the science isn’t as flattering as you might think it is in terms of transitioning the actual science the science you should probably read before you help people stay on this path so so you are very upset i am not sure yep yep and you deserve it they are accusatory and you deserve every bit of it you are you are actively hurting people in your job in your profession that you are getting paid for you are actively hurting mentally ill people i am telling you that right now you are actively hurting mentally ill people there’s no doubt in my mind about that so if you’d like i can refer you to somebody else you and your people sterilized me and you’re telling me you’re saying i’m abusive because i’m upset about it what is wrong with you seriously seriously take a step back for a second you’re just like them you’re just like them though well you were just like them so okay so if i if i you’re saying you wouldn’t have referred me to a doctor ever and i wouldn’t have gone to an endo okay so you would have referred me to a doctor and they would have sterilized me too so how are you different maybe i’m not i don’t think you are i’m telling you you’re not i’ve seen four of you do not think maybe i’m maybe i’m speaking from experience a little bit you’re exactly the same you would have done the exact same thing you would have referred me to the endo i would have gone to the endo i would have been sterilized the same and then you call me i mean the audacity to call me abusive because i’m upset at you and your and and these gender therapists for effectively ruining my [ _ ] life
do you not see that as
do not do you not see that as abusive
because that’s abusive
maybe you deserve people to be upset at
you
maybe you deserve to have your license
away
taken away maybe you deserve to be put
in jail or be sued maybe you deserve
that for leading mentally ill people
down a delusional path
that hurts them and sterilizes them and
hurts their body and gives them health
issues
for life
i mean let’s just say i’m correct for a
moment do you not think you deserve that
if i’m correct
because i
i absolutely think you deserve that if
i’m correct
and i do think i’m correct and i’ve
studied more than you believe it or not
maybe not in the therapeutic sense
but in the science i know way more than
you i know more than my doctor that’s
clear by talking to her
and that’s that disgusts me
and she doesn’t even think my autoimmune
condition has anything to do with the
estrogen guess what i come off the
estrogen it gets better i look the
medical science it says that that that’s
not even that uncommon
it happens with people who have
autoimmune conditions they go on
estrogen
it can get worse they can get new
autoimmune conditions which i did
my doctor doesn’t even know about that
why do i know about it
because i read the medical studies well
why hasn’t she why haven’t you
you haven’t read anything my doctor
hasn’t read anything you know nothing
you’ve read
the bare minimum of what you need to
read to think make you think you’re
doing okay make you think you’re doing
well and you’re not
and then so i’m telling you
maybe you deserve these things
and then you say i’m abusive
you know what i think i think
i think taking up a position of
of trust
where you are dealing with mentally ill
people
and then sending them out down a path of
delusion and sterilization health issues
i think that’s abusive
i think i think that’s just about as bad
as anything else you could possibly do
you may as well be murdering people as
far as i’m concerned because you’re
taking their whole lives away
their whole lives
and many many people aren’t as hard as
thoughtful as i am and so they don’t
question it for they don’t question as
quickly as i did or as or intensely as i
did and so it takes them three years
four years five years six years i’ve
seen people
not question until they were in seven
years
seven years
you don’t think they had surgeries done
at seven years of course they did
there’s no way back for them
to think to think that a year of therapy
and someone’s supposed to figure out
these things it’s it’s absurd
it’s absolutely absurd
and and most people don’t even have a
year of therapy
i i elected to go to therapy i didn’t
have to
and it didn’t help
i did more than anyone else and it
didn’t help
so you can you better believe that
they’re going to be more people
and
i’m telling you right now i’ve i have
all the names of the of the four of you
and i will do everything i can
to make people aware of
what you’ve did what have you done for
the rest of time i’ll have it
memorialized on the internet somehow
that
you four are evil
and there are more out there like you
but
you’re just you’re not going to just
stop you know i’m sure once all this
caves in in 5 10 15 20 years
and people we realize what we’ve done to
people like me
well that’s what you’re going to be
remembered for on the internet
because i’m not i’m not i know i know
you’re just going to move on you’re just
going to
your your profession just moves on
that’s what psychology has always done
just moves on to the next thing
you’re acting like a child now too by
the way
yeah sure
you’re just wasting my time is what
you’re doing
why would i reschedule
so you can waste more of my time
do you want to maybe try and convince me
maybe maybe if you waste enough my time
i’ll go back on hormones
maybe i will
and then then you wouldn’t be an evil
person right
because i’m i’m i i know you won’t
convince me you’re just letting me dance
around in the delusion until i go back
on hormones again like i’ve done 15
times
and you’re just like you just keep
letting me do that for the rest of my
[ _ ] life but oh god forbid you’d never tell me the truth you’d never tell me anything real you’d never get me back in touch with reality like a therapist might want to do and would do with any other sort of illness would do with any other sort of delusion but no not with this one because you’ve been trained not to so i get no help and i just do this for the rest of my life that’s what you want from me right now that’s what you want by me setting up an appointment you want me to continue this forever until well until you move on until you maybe move to a different state or get a different job or whatever and then you just move on with your life and i’m still sterile and broken because of you and it is because of you i mean do you have anything that you’d actually like to say or you just want to just sit there like a [ _ ] kid
well you’re supposed to be here to help
me are you going to help me
you are here to help me
well then maybe you shouldn’t be in this
job because it absolutely is what you’re
supposed to be doing
let me ask you a question if a if a
schizophrenic person were to come to you
do you deal with schizophrenic people at
all
and they have delusions no they have
delusions right so
what do you do
when they’re telling you
about their delusion
do you let them stew in it for years
okay so you don’t deal with people who
have delusions and yet you’re talking to
trans people who are delusional
okay
what i’m asking is what what do you do
for these people who are delusional
like for instance thinking you’re a
woman when you’re a man
how do you not consider that an illusion
how how exactly
i think that’s i think that’s heartless
honestly because i am delusional and
you’re not going to help
it’s your fault it’s all of it’s all
four of you it’s it’s this whole
profession it’s this whole thing i’m
delusional and you’re not helping
and you’re not treating me like i am and
you just say yourself i don’t consider
it a delusion
i mean
there are just as many people
who are hurt by
around in itself because you are telling
me something and you’re telling me your
thoughts and your beliefs and i
understand that you’re really hurt by
what happened
but i can’t change what somebody else
